A Note from Natasha Kane
This discussion occurred on October 30 via Zoom, and its discourse focuses on the marketing approaches from BOA Editions, TRP: The University Press of SHSU, and Trio House Press. It’s important to note that our conversation regarding the marketing of a poetry book centers on experiences we’ve had, and that there really isn’t one particular route all poets must take to promote their book. Regardless, I’m hopeful that our conversation can make the hurdle of marketing seem less daunting and, perhaps, even fun.
Natasha Kane
So, we’re all from small presses and work in close collaborative spaces, and it makes me think a lot about community. To open our discussion, I would love for us to consider the prepublication process for poets. Before a poet is even published, how important is it for them to build community beforehand? Could I get both of your thoughts on that?
Justine Alfano
Yeah, I would say that it’s super important to start building early, and it’s kind of, like, networking. You know, getting in touch with maybe friends that you haven’t spoken to in a while, and just being a little more social. I think when your book comes out, if you’re looking to sell a lot of copies and market it, you’re gonna kind of have to put yourself out there and have a little bit of a foundation that’s waiting and that’s excited to buy a copy of your book. So, yeah, I think that that is very important.
Karisma “Charlie” Tobin
I agree. I think also being involved with the local lit scene, the poetry scene. A lot of events only really hear from people when they have a book out and they’re trying to sell themselves, and that makes sense, that’s natural, that’s just how things are, but it seems like a lot of places are a lot more excited about hosting the people who have been coming to the readings and participating in a community-oriented way before being like, “And now I want something from you.”
Kane
No, absolutely. I’m actually in the middle of teaching a publishing class for my students at UNF right now, and we talk a lot about how important community is and especially their local community. I feel like as creatives we can be introverted and aloof about our local creative community.
Alfano
Yes!
Kane
I am constantly pressuring my students to go to local open mics and to talk to people in the community, because I feel like a lot of the artistic communities, like, everywhere, are very supportive of each other, because they’re typically smaller communities as well. I have a friend, she reads her poetry at some open mics, and she also touches on the fact that it’s also great feedback. She says, “If I read a line, and I’m not sure if that line’s going to hit, and everyone’s silent, I’m like, ‘Okay, we’re editing that.’” But then she’s told me that when the book comes out, people are like, “I remember you reading that poem two months ago, I’m so happy your book is out.” And that’s kind of a great, really wholesome feeling.
So, kind of continuing our discussion on this community-oriented and prepublication path, I wanted to ask you guys how you feel about blurbs for poetry books, because I feel that it’s a really overwhelming responsibility to put onto poets. Like, “Okay, now we need blurbs, and we’re going to put them on the back of your book!” They’re usually like, “Oh, I just hate the sound of the word blurb, it feels awkward, like, do I just email them and ask them to review the book?” And I’m like, “Yeah.” I mean, typically they’re your friends, or they’re your mentors, or someone who inspires you, so I feel sure they’d be happy to. And they’re like, “. . . Okay.” And then they ghost for a month—
Alfano and Tobin
[laughter]
Kane
—and then they come back with these really stellar blurbs, but I wanted to ask you guys how important you feel blurbs are for poetry books.
Tobin
I think they’re pretty huge, and it’s complicated because of all of the things, because it’s awkward and uncomfortable, and it can often feed into systemic issues, because some people just have more access to blurbers than others do, and that’s not equitable, and it sucks. But at the same time, it’s such a huge resource, I think for poetry in particular, because poetry is so hard to describe well. And a lot of times, even more so than with prose, a good blurb will capture the feeling of the book in a way that’s really exciting and enticing, that you don’t get the same way from a book description, or even if you do, it feels like there’s effusive praise other people can say about your book, but if you say it yourself, it seems disingenuous. And then also we always ask our authors too, we never force them. We say, “Hey, we’d really like you to have at least two or three. If you want to have more than that, that’s fantastic, it only helps. If you’re really opposed to it, we can work with that. But it makes a huge difference, and to have the name recognition, all of it, it’s a very helpful tool.”
Alfano
Yeah, I was going to touch on the fact that it really helps describe the book, especially with poetry that’s so multifaceted and goes so many different places. It’s kind of impossible to put that all in a book description that you kind of want to keep at a certain length. And then, just having other voices and other opinions outside of, you know, the publisher who obviously wants to sell the book, like, it’s nice to have other voices carry it for you. And then afterwards, they’re great, I think, for posting and promoting on social media when the book’s coming out, so just to bring up engagement and excitement around it.
Kane
I also just feel, as a reader, I have certain poets I love to follow, and when they endorse a book, I would trust them with my life, so I’m like, “Well obviously I’ll trust you and read this poetry book,” and I’ve never had any negative feelings for that. I’m always like, “Yeah, of course it’s a great book, you blurbed it,” so from a reader’s standpoint, that’s kind of a positive too, even though we know most poets are such introverts, like, we hate asking for anything. [laughter] And we’re like, “I’m so sorry, could you . . .”
Tobin
And it kind of ties to what you were saying about community too, because it’s a more formalized and distanced version of that. It’s in written form from your friends, your mentors, your whoever, saying, “This is a great book,” and all of the people that are gonna listen to those people now that they know that they think it’s a good book.
Kane
Yeah, absolutely! Justine, you also brought up how blurbs are great for posting on social media, and I think for us as marketers, and this could just be my feeling, but I feel like a good percentage of our work is social media. I’m interested in what you both think on which social media platforms are the best for poets to kind of post on, and what social media ideas you have. Because we definitely do encourage them to, you know, make fun graphics with the blurbs, but I feel like social media is such a beast to navigate, especially right now.
Alfano
Absolutely. We’ve been doing a lot of social media, because our platforms have been growing a lot recently, so it’s a matter of keeping up with that and keeping consistent. I think the best platform for poets would probably be Instagram, just because it’s very aesthetic, and I feel like that just goes hand in hand with poetry. I think the collaborating, like, having a collab post on Instagram is very helpful, and . . .
Kane
Yes!
Alfano
I don’t know, it just brings a whole bunch of new eyes onto your post, and kind of forms that community, if you will, and bridges a bunch of connections. So, I always encourage Instagram over any other platform.
Tobin
That one . . . at our university, we’re a little bit locked in on what we can and can’t have, so I’m not sure. Right now, we’re still just on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or X, or whatever, which is pretty dead at this point. And Facebook is also challenging for a number of reasons, but oddly, a lot of it is structural, because a page can’t tag a profile. Except sometimes when it can. So, like 90 percent of the time, if we’re trying to post something about one of our authors, unless they have a business page for themselves as a writer, we can’t tag them, and that really hurts the viewing.
Tobin
Yeah, or if the account is private, sometimes you can’t do that either.
Kane
And I totally understand the desire to be private on Instagram, but I feel like when I’m browsing with the Trio House Press page, I stumble on a great post, and like, “This is so beautiful, I would love to repost it, can you just give me access for a second?” Speaking of social media, I also feel like we query for reviews, to be featured in lit magazines and review articles. And I feel like those reviews are great to have, but I feel that what sort of amplifies them is posting about them on social media and sort of sharing that news. Like beyond being featured in a newsletter or, you know, an article, it’s also us kind of sharing that on social media. Do you guys agree with that?
Alfano
Yeah, it kind of amplifies it, I feel.
Tobin
And especially what Justine was saying about collab posts, whether it’s a collab or whether you’re tagged in some lit mag post, or they’re tagged in yours, it gets a lot of eyes on your page that otherwise wouldn’t be in your audience, necessarily.
Kane
Yes! And with social media in mind, and I feel like recent events kind of showed us our ability to build communities online, which is really wonderful, and sort of the only good positive that came out of that. But I was wondering, do you guys feel like events in person or virtual are better for poets to market themselves?
“There’s something really special about being in person at a reading and hearing the poet’s deepest, darkest thoughts, because poetry is so personal and so intimate.”
Alfano
Yeah, I think it’s a mix of both, but I think in person just works great for poetry. I think there’s something really special about being in person at a reading, and hearing the poet’s deepest, darkest thoughts, because poetry is so personal and so intimate, like I really think that it’s important to do in-person readings. And I think virtual ones are special too, but there’s a difference from being in the room.
Tobin
Yeah, I think . . . you know, I hate to be prescriptive, like, nothing is one-size-fits-all, people live in different-sized areas and have different abilities to get to one place or another, and that’s going to shape the situation, but in-person events tend to be more exactly like what you were saying—it feels more real, and not to be super coldhearted, but that does directly translate into better book sales. When you talk to someone and you have that present, one-on-one connection, because that’s a part of it too. Like, you can’t pull someone aside for a conversation and have a fifteen-second, one-on-one with them in an online reading the way you can at an in-person event. And that makes a huge difference. Like, books sell really well at in-person events, and at least in my experience, that is not so much the case with the online readings we’ve done.
Kane
Yeah, and it’s also that ease of access.
Tobin
Yeah!
Kane
Like, the author is right there, and I feel comfortable walking up and being like, “Can you sign my book?” And now I definitely want a book, because I’m going to get an author to sign it, versus, like, I feel awkward—well, I always feel awkward—but more awkward, like, having to email someone and being like, “I really liked your reading, how do I order a book and get it signed from you, and what is the mailing process like?” Versus at a reading, it’s great to have those books right there.
Alfano
Yeah, you can look through them and feel them and know what you’re a part of, what you’re buying, and get your copy signed.
Tobin
You don’t have to pay for shipping.
Kane and Alfano
[laughter]
Kane
With that in mind, do you all recommend that poets do an in-person book launch? Because at Trio House, we always do a one-time YouTube live reading where we get all the authors across the nation together, but then we kind of let the authors do their own individual book launches, and kind of support them through social media as well as we can, and get the books to the bookstores as well, but would you recommend always doing at least one in-person event?
Tobin
Absolutely. Unless if someone’s really uncomfortable with it, that’s their choice, they don’t have to, but I would always recommend that, and if you can do more than one, do it.
Alfano
I think the book launches are super important, and it also gives us something to share, and just share in the excitement and the joy on the pub day and everything, so I always love seeing those and sharing those.
Kane
Yeah, and we also get the question a lot about how to get the book into independent bookstores and things like that, and I do feel like those book launch events or readings help get books into the bookstores.
Tobin
Yeah, TRP is distributed through the Texas Book Consortium, so we don’t usually work with bookstores directly, but from conversations I’ve had with their marketing team, local bookstores are always much more interested in stocking a copy, because they find that it will sell better if it’s in the author’s region, and they have actually recommended that we encourage our authors to reach out to bookstores directly, because a lot of the time, it means more coming from someone who lives in their community being like, “Hey, I wrote this book,” than from a publisher who might be halfway across the country. And I think events especially do help, because then it’s saying, on the one hand, you’re asking for effort and time and space from the bookstore, but on the other hand, you’re also saying, “Hey, I will bring an audience,” and that will raise the odds that this sells in a store. And that can help a lot. And I think also being involved with that bookstore before you want something from them. Like, going to their events and just being engaged with them in a community sort of way.
Alfano
That’ll also come in handy, like, if you have another book that comes out, they’ll remember you, and so it kind of paves the way for future collections.
Kane
Yes! Having the authors go in person and even getting that one-on-one conversation with the seller is great. It’s kind of like, the worst somebody could say is no. Even though rejection does feel terrible, it can never really hurt to ask, because I always feel like a lot of independent bookstores are really inclined to support their local artists, their local writers, and I think just saying, “Hi, I’m local, and I would love to stock my book here,” like, I always feel like they’re really inclined to work with you through that sort of engagement.
The other thing I wanted to ask you guys about is how important do you feel awards and contests postpub are for marketing? Which I do acknowledge is kind of a hard question, because I do think postpub contests add up in the sense that they can get quite expensive with the entry fees and how many book copies they need, but I kind of wonder if they have sort of a net good. Just as we kind of get literary reviews, and we share that on social media with our community, like, again, it’s social media, people will be like, “Oh, you got this award, congrats,” and they feel more inclined to buy your book, because the award itself might have prestige behind it.
Tobin
I think it’s huge. It’s always a challenge, because, you know, statistically, the odds of winning anything are very low, because there’s only one or a handful of books that are going to win, and there’s hundreds, if not thousands, of books being submitted. Every year, when it’s budget time, we have the same conversation of “Do we need to cut back on awards?” because it’s really a lot of money, and we always end up landing on, “No, we need to be doing this to support our books, to support our authors, to be supportive of the awards and the institutions that are, you know, honoring books in the world and in the country.” We had a book last year on the National Book Award longlist, The Book of Wounded Sparrows by Octavio Quintanilla, and they don’t tell the publisher ahead of time, so we found out at the same time the rest of the world did, and it was a Friday morning. By that afternoon, we already had to start a reprint.
Kane
Wow!
Tobin
And by that next Monday, we had to start a second one. Because there were just so many orders coming in out of nowhere, and it was really wild and bizarre, but it made a huge difference in the sales for the book, and it’s continued to do really well, and it also helps that, you know, nothing exists in isolation. It’s an amazing book, it’s an amazing poet, he’s very, very active, does a lot of events, and is very engaged in the community, but it’s definitely worth it.
Kane
Octavio is great. Sorry, just like a side note. I remember reaching out to him for artwork for The Talon Review, and he was like, “Yeah, Natasha, I’ll send over some things!” He’s just a really wonderful person. I was very happy to hear about that listing.
Tobin
Yeah, he’s fantastic.
Kane
I think also, I love that you brought up the budgeting talk too, because that’s something many small presses struggle with.
Alfano
Yeah, I wish we were able to submit all of our books to all the awards, but it is very costly, and there are a lot of awards. Sometimes we’ll go half and half with our authors and help them submit. We do all that we can to get our books out there. I think that that’s super important.
Tobin
I think it’s also that relational aspect, because I hate when authors email, “Can you submit my book to the whatever prize?” And we have to be like, “No.” And for us, it’s usually something complicated, like we’re only able to pay contest fees in certain ways or that particular one requires something very specific that we just are not allowed to do. But whenever we can, it makes a difference in a way. I can see it in the relationships that we have, when it’s like, “Hey, if we can do it, we’ll do it, and sometimes we can’t, but you know we’ll try.” And we actually ask our poets that in part of our onboarding. We’re like, “Hey, what are the top places that you would want?” and we’ll consider that as well as our list.
Kane
I think the marketing plan is always so important between an author and the publisher, just because it really does outline with full transparency what we want to accomplish together as well. So, to kind of steer the wheel a little, how important do you think it is for poets to network with universities and schools? Or getting their books listed into university curriculums or workshops. And do you have any advice on how they could do that?
Tobin
That’s tough. If you can, absolutely go for it, it’s great. We always encourage ours, if they’re involved in academia, to shamelessly plug themselves to their institutions and their alma maters, because every university admin, every university department, wants to hear about their students’ success stories, because that’s how you sell yourself as a university. There’s a really nice symbiosis there. Especially if you know people who are professors, tell them, “I have a book coming out,” because course adoption is a big deal. That can influence a whole group of the upcoming generation of writers, from the artistic side and then from the pragmatic side. That’s a class’s worth of sales in a batch, which is nothing to sneeze at. But, you know, at the same time there’s all kinds of different ways to do poetry, and I don’t think being unaffiliated with academia is a problem in any way, but if you have those ties, definitely capitalize on them.
Alfano
I second that opinion. We ask the authors as a part of their initial questionnaire to list any professors that they have a more personal connection with, and I think some of our biggest book sales, especially around the book’s launch, come from getting it adopted for a course. Or even just an author visit when it’s first starting out.
Kane
I think it also underscores that you can learn a lot through poetry and poetry is an educational tool. I feel when university professors adopt one of our poets’ books, I’m like, “I wish I was in your class, like, what are the students going to learn from the book? I just want to be there!” But to get to my big question, I do feel like marketing can be super overwhelming for poets as well, because it is a big achievement to get your book published, but then I feel like they kind of look at this hurdle of marketing. I think, especially because a lot of poets have their own jobs, their own families, and other time commitments, what big advice would you have for poets who are just starting into marketing their books, just getting signed on?
“Do a little bit, because it is so much better to do anything than it is to do nothing at all.”
Tobin
One piece of advice that is true for everything is that some is better than none, and if it looks too big and too overwhelming to the point where you can’t start, then don’t worry about that. Do a little bit, because it is so much better to do anything than it is to do nothing at all. And then, on a more pragmatic note, don’t worry about the size of the thing, just do the things. Because the more that your name is out there, the more that your book title is out there. Especially for people who do social media, post about your events a lot, because it’ll just saturate people’s consciousnesses that, like, “Oh yeah, my cousin’s book came out, I should really buy that. That’s something one should do.” And then you forget. But then you see, “Oh, they posted something again, they’re doing something else,” and you’re like, “Oh yeah, they have that book out,” and you see it more and more, and it becomes more and more remembered, for one, but just familiar and kind of ingrained and exciting.
Then for reviews and podcasts and things, the worst they can say is no, but also don’t be shy about asking your friends or your acquaintances. As a press, we have a big list that we blind query. We’ll submit everything that’s eligible, a huge list of reviewers and of different things. But 90 percent of it, we don’t get any hits on. Most of the poets who end up having a big tour lined up, or who end up showing up in a lot of reviews, or a lot of blogs or podcasts or whatever, it’s usually because they have some degree of personal connection to the person on the other side, and then it’s someone going, “Oh, here’s not just . . . you know, one name out of a thousand in a list, here’s that person I had a drink with that one time.” And it’s awkward to ask our friends for stuff, you know, you don’t want to be obnoxious about it, but be open to using the resources and the network that you have.
Alfano
Yeah. I think a lot of the time, for newer poets who this might be their first collection, when they think of marketing, it’s very graphic heavy and advertisement heavy. They are like, “I don’t have all of these tools or skills or know-how,” but a lot of it is just telling people. Start telling people how excited you are about your book coming out, and bring them along [for] all the little stages. I love seeing the unboxing videos, whether it’s a galley or the final copies. I’ve seen some really creative ones that are just fun, and I think that that joy is contagious. I think that we live in a time where we follow influencers all the time. We’re kind of a part of people’s lives in all these little moments. So, if you forget all the graphics, forget all the advertising, stuff like that, and just focus on bringing people in and along for your journey, I think that’s more than half of the marketing. As far as social media goes.
Kane
Yeah, I think authenticity, too, is so important. I’m glad you guys also brought pacing yourself. Even if you want to do it all, it’s really hard to admit later, after filling out the marketing questionnaire, that sometimes you can’t. I think having that open communication with your publisher too helps, because maybe your publisher can help you get something done, or help you accomplish it. I remember some of our authors at Trio House Press had trouble booking certain events, and we were able to step in and accomplish it for them. So, having that open communication always helps.
But beyond that, I feel that there’s something special to being authentic on social media. As you said, we kind of get lost in the glitz and glamour of “I need to make a graphic for this, and then a graphic for this, and it has to have, like, this special animation or twinkle on it,” but even just posting a short on your story, “Oh, I can’t believe my book is coming out in two weeks!” Like you said, that joy is contagious. People want to kind of be enamored with that joy and support someone as well, which I think is something kind of really special about the poetry community as well. I feel like a lot of poets are the ones that are also buying poetry books, so it’s also a nice community to kind of involve yourself with, and just sort of authentically talk to, rather than getting caught up in Canva for six hours.
Tobin
I guess I would also add, it’s not for everybody, and, same thing, if it’s not gonna be authentic, it’s different. We have had a few authors who have had really, really good success by overcoming that barrier. Like, it’s awkward to ask someone to sign a book and we have one that was a chapbook, and chapbooks usually do not make a lot of money, which is fine, that’s not what they’re supposed to do, but we have a chapbook that is one of our best sellers, and it’s largely because the poet would routinely go on social media and be like, “Hey, I have fifteen copies, if you’re interested, I will sign them for you and put it in the mail and send you a sticker or something, like, DM me.” And they would do that, you know, once every couple of weeks, and it really stacked up over time.
Kane
I love that. That’s such a great point. And to build on that, I think a lot of poets are readers. We have an author who did this beautiful thing where you could tell she genuinely read the books she posted about, and she would post her favorite poem and really interact with the poem. I think the poets just really appreciate that authenticity from her. To be genuinely read and interacted with, like, “Oh, I love this line because it reminds me of this,” and “What a beautiful way of using metaphor,” like anyone would really love that. And then, you know, that was sort of one way she was building community online, but then in another way, she was doing the same thing, where she’s posting “I have ten copies—if you order it, I’ll sign it and I’ll send it to you,” and people immediately jumped on it. It’s cool when social media can be a tool for good. But okay, I think we touched on as much as we could. Thank you all so much for taking the time to speak with me. I’m really appreciative and grateful!
Alfano
Yeah, thank you so much for putting it all together, and it was great talking to you guys.
Tobin
It was great to meet you both. Thanks for doing all of this.
Kane
Yeah, and hopefully, I don’t know, I hope you guys are going to the conference in Baltimore. I would love to meet you guys in person.
Tobin
We’ll be there. Absolutely.
Alfano
It’s BOA’s fiftieth anniversary, so we’ll be there!
Tobin
I’m super excited. That’s amazing!
Kane
Yay! We’ll have to plan a crowd party at the BOA booth!
Justine Alfano (she/her) is the director of Production & Marketing at BOA Editions, an independent, nonprofit literary press based in Rochester, New York. After starting as an intern, she advanced into her current role, where she oversees the production of poetry and fiction titles, collaborates closely on cover and interior design, and leads marketing initiatives to broaden the press’s reach within the literary community. Her work supports BOA’s mission to champion contemporary literature and amplify diverse new voices.
Natasha Kane is a Thai American editor, creative marketer, and educator. She is the associate editor of Trio House Press, and her work in publishing has been recognized in BookCAMP’s 40 Under 40 in Publishing. She is the former editor in chief of The Talon Review and currently serves as their marketing faculty advisor, while teaching at the University of North Florida as a visiting instructor.
Karisma “Charlie” Tobin grew up in the mountains of New Mexico and Alaska. She is currently the operations manager at TRP: The University Press of SHSU, and her work appears in NonBinary Review, Hunger Mountain, Interim, Plainsongs, and others. Tobin holds an MFA in creative writing, editing, and publishing and an MA in English language and literature from Sam Houston State University.